I did notice that when I added the words, “justice, just, needy, destitute, oppress” to the biblegateway keyword search above - the numbers of verses went to 826. I am sure there are many more that use other words besdies the above.

I also once tried to start reading at the beginning of Genesis and cut/copy every verse that had to do with either the poor or our use of money. The task was overwhelming and I was unable to finish.

I am glad to see cited where Jim Wallis and the early sojourners actually discovered over 2000 verses many years ago. See http://www.umc-gbcs.org/site/apps/nlnet/content.aspx?c=frLJK2PKLqF&b=4427899&ct=5846793.

I am looking forward to getting the Poverty and Justice Bible to assist me in paying better attention to both my personal and political obligations for the sake of God’s call on my/our lives.

To the main point:
Yes, all three believe in Christ. I would say that Camps B & C are not separate groups, but two perspectives on the same concept (Christ’s “becom[ing] sin” was his act of “pay[ing] for sin”).

But Paul told us to watch out for someone, even he, who would come preaching a different Gospel from what he had preached, which seems to say that even if the universalist has faith in Christ, they should be corrected.

Paul also seems to be saying that it’s important for Christ to be proclaimed rightly. And this is a major point if we consider the watchman passages in Ezekiel.

But my main point is that this is not about atonement. It is about the fact that the old testament foretells the death of Christ. Jesus says he has come to die. He says that must die. Then he begs to be saved, but submits himself to God’s will…not the consequences of his actions.

To say that God didn’t will Jesus death is to say that it wasn’t necessary. It was a noble act, but only symbolic, because it wasn’t the (intentional) sacrifice for sin. It’s also to call Jesus, Paul, and Isaiah liars.

That’s not cool with me. And it’s not minor.

Thank you so much for replying!

Sidebar:
I’m glad you brought up universalism; it’s a topic I’ve been wrestling with as of late. From Romans 3:22, should πίστις Χριστοῦ (pisti” Cristou) be translated as “faith in Christ” or as “the faith of Christ”?

Main Point:
The universalist believes in a Christ who “was made to be sin” or “chose to become sin” (2Cor5:21). Either way, through Christ, all who are made in the image of God are declared to be righteous.

If I read you right, you’re saying Rob Bell believes in a Christ who “chose to become sin” for we who believe in Him.

When I “prayed the sinners’ prayer” as a child, I believed in a Christ who “was made to pay for our sin” and that belief in Christ was requirement to obtain forgiveness.

Any of these three points of view all claim to believe in Jesus.

I say that they all do. Camp A believers are still Christians according to Camp B. Camp B are according to Camp C. Camp C are according to Camp A. What they disagree about is what happens to those who *don’t* believe in Christ.

I’m willing to accept that perhaps Rob Bell, if wrong, is missing out at least in part on being able to appreciate and glorify God.

But, really, even if Rob Bell *is* wrong (or I am or you are), so what? In every way, whether the Father willed the death of Jesus or not, Christ is being proclaimed. In spite of this major (I say minor =) point, we rejoice.

Thanks for the thoughts. What you consider a weak point in PSA, is actually an issue that affects every perspective on atonement except universalism. Everyone who believes that there are some who receive salvation and some who don’t, has to come to a conclusion on how it is received.

This isn’t about Bell’s stance on atonement. This is about his stance on God’s will, on sovereignty, about the promises to Abraham and David. He’s saying, as many have (and I think incorrectly) that God didn’t plan Jesus’ death.

Atonement is a relatively minor point, but the idea that “God didn’t will Jesus’ death” doesn’t hold up to Scriptural scrutiny.

A huge congrats to you on landing that job! All the best with the move.

Such an amazing phrase. Capable of turning the pew-sitting rocks into God glorifying voices. (well, that’s how it worked with me

Hearing what others have to say has not ceased to give me new things to wonder about. I’m curious, what do you make of:

From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitutionary_atonement
Pope John Paul II referred to these Acts of Reparation as the “unceasing effort to stand beside the endless crosses on which the Son of God continues to be crucified”.

From http://heartissuesforlds.wordpress.com/2008/08/22/current-controversy-over-penal-substitutionary-atonement-psa/
The evangelical theology I had once held was built on views of suffering: Christ suffered for my sins, so that I would not have to suffer eternally, because God is a righteous judge who punishes for all time those who reject him and the salvation that he has provided. The irony, I suppose, is that it was precisely my view of suffering that led me away from this understanding of Christ, salvation, and God.
Bart D. Ehrman, God’s Problem, 2008, p. 128.

What seems to me the weakest point, from where I stand, of PSA, is this: How can one know one has signed up for said atonement? Does one have to believe in/on Jesus? (if so, what of those living in the Americas from the life of Christ up through the arrival of the ships carrying the good news?) Does one have to do something special to earn this atonement? (baptism, confirmation, acts of piety, send enough money to the televangelist, praying the right prayer, etc) Can one lose this atonement through ones actions or inactions?

I am not Rob Bell, nor can I say I agree with all of his theology, however, Bell’s stance on PSA really *is* a minor point. If I am not taking the writings of Paul out of context,

Philippians 1:15-18

1:15 Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from goodwill. 1:16 The latter do so from love because they know that I am placed here for the defense of the gospel. 1:17 The former proclaim Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, because they think they can cause trouble for me in my imprisonment. 1:18 What is the result? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being proclaimed, and in this I rejoice.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/phil1-15-18

Charis kai eirene.

Let’s look at Washington, DC. This article from the Washington Post notes that for DC public schools, “total spending is close to $25,000 per child.”

In the very next paragraph, it states: “ad_icon

For comparison, total per pupil spending at D.C. area private schools — among the most upscale in the nation — averages about $10,000 less. For most private schools, the difference is even greater.”

The same is true all across the country. So, if you gave the opportunity to DC students to attend private schools and the voucher covered every penny of tuition, each public school would receive at least $10,000 per year for every student that took the voucher.

You have a school of 500 and 50 take the vouchers, your budget just increased by $500,000. Add the larger per student operating budget for each public school to the competition introduced to the local education system, and you will see success.

And I don’t see much potential for failing schools to get worse, particularly if they suddenly see a decrease in class size and an increase in available capital.

“We can’t even count on self-described atheists to be strict rationalists.”
“21% of self-proclaimed atheists believe in either a personal God or an impersonal force.”

So, the article is very much intact.

Make any sense?

Do you think that correlation will work? Me setting a world record?

Thus, the entire article falls apart.

But why do we have to fudge the numbers by adding verses like this? is 200 not enough? Is the fact that it’s a major theme woven throughout the Bible not enough?

Poverty is huge in the Bible, but it’s not the major issue. Serving the poor is a way to glorify God, but it’s not the way, or even the primary way, to fulfill the Gospel.

This definitely isn’t a thousand, but a quick search on biblegateway got me to 230 just looking for four keywords:
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=poor+poverty+oppressed&searchtype=any&version1=31&spanbegin=1&spanend=73

I talk a lot about the verses related to poverty, wealth, money etc. on my blog.

Stop by sometime.

The major difference is that the argument for school choice is not one of, “My child, my choice,” in the way that the argument for abortion rights is, “My body, my choice.” The argument for school choice is that competition breeds success.

That reasoning doesn’t transfer to the pro-choice/pro-life debate. It would transfer to questions about government intervention into the private market in any other arena, but not to abortion.