I attended Trinity Lutheran Seminary in Columbus, OH. I prayed to: God, Allah, Confucious, Jesus or Buddha for a “C or B” both Greek and Exegetical Greek. I worked very hard for those grades. Then I celebrated the “same way” Martin Luther himself would have celebrated when finally I got the grades

In our seminary, the Biblical division was pretty strong. So I had to read “page by page” both volumes of Rudolf Bultmann’s NT Theology. Then to make a point, my NT professor had me read George E. Ladd’s NT Theolgy to make the case the Historical-Critical tools are neither good nor bad; conservative nor liberal [Ladd uses Historical Critical tools and comes down to a fairly conservative position]. Currently, I am reading Udo Schnelle’s “Theology of the NT,” published by Baker Academic. With Schnelle, “ditto” on using Historical Criticism and still coming pretty close to an Orthodox position.

I also took the Gospel of John advanced Biblical division course [I got closed out of St. Mark the shorter gospel opetion]. I had to read EVERY PAGE of Raymond Brown’s Commentary [words are the size of a dictionary]. Then I had to read a Baptist commentator [Vanderlip] and a Roman Catholic scholar [J. Louis Martyn]. I read John “in the John” to get a “B” in that course.

Let me say, I DO agree with the premise of the whole line of blogs that suggested that seminaries who lean too heavily toward a Church Growth or Pastoral Care model, will usually admit they are doing so at the expense of heavier “academics.” There seems to have been a strain opinion or thought in the church [and church magazines] for the past couple decades that suggests theological education has to be more practical, “contextual” and address contemporary situations. Academics gets painted as the outdated relic, old goat that is holding church leaders back from being “effective, dynamic church planters and turn around leaders.”

I was told in seminary that John Tetzel got the large crowds while selling indudgences. Luther had the smaller group–then he wrote them a “Catechism” at that!!

Call me an old fuddy duddy, but I still think the basic Church History Classes, Theology Classes, Biblical exegetial courses and knowing the ancient church fathers is the way to go. Because one day it is might be the “Willow Creek” model, then “Vineyard,” then maybe the now Missional church movement etc.

One day those clergy with tattoos on their arms, T-shirts, skin head hair cuts, pierced ears and Hawaiian shirts will be the “has beens” just like the Bearded Kum Bye Yah guitar player around the campfire and the “Purpose driven guy….what’s his name?” But Luther, Calvin, Wesley, St. Francis, Bonhoeffer, Barth, Tillich and even CF Henry will have long lasting legacies.

Before I was a pastor I attended a Graphic Arts college in Michigan. And you bet your bottom dollar that I had to perform at a certain level on the printing presses, photographic cameras and typesetting equipment before I passed. In seminary this basically translated into being conversant [not always agreeing] with the various past, present and upcoming voices in the various disciplines of study within the theological academy.

If I were at DTS, I would be taking all the time I could to take the classes I am interested in. If there is a consortium, I would not be afraid to take classes at another seminary. I took a class at the area Roman Catholic Seminary in Delaware, Ohio.

God’s blessings. We are about to have a blizzard here in Ohio coming from out west. I now know how the folks in “Lake Wobegon” feel

Which seminary did you attend? When I was working in an ELCA church I found that the pastor wasn’t as well versed in any of those areas as you seem to be. He seemed to be all Gospel and no Law (and, ironically, no Jesus).

Maybe this is just one of my unreasonable expectations of an academic establishment. Oh well.

I think the M.Div. or in your case ThM. program is what one puts into it. In the case of Lutherans, the denominational candidacy committees want to make sure their future clergy REALLY know and Confess Lutheran History, Theology, Sacraments etc. That is not to say the Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals or Presbyterians are “wrong.” The expectation is that is reasonable for Lutheran clergy to know Lutheran understandings of Scripture, theology [they called it "Constructive Theology" rather than "Systematic Theology" where I went, as a "System" is closed, whereas "Constructive Theology" allows one to adapt to changes in culture w/o compromising the Confessional stances of the church.

I still believe that, "Seminary is what you want to put into it." I happened to "like" Ancient Church and Reformation History. I also happened to like to study authors ranging from George E. Ladd to Rudolf Bultmann, Paul Tillich, etc. But certain denominations WILL raise the bar quite high in their candidacy process of courses studied.

So in our church, an M.Div. is not enough for ordination w/o also passing [or going the hoops] of the denomination’s standards. I was told before I left [the ELCA mainline]seminary to have integrity as to what I believe in, and do not “sell my soul” to any cause that I believe goes against the Scriptural understanding and Confessions of the church.

In our case, it is Luther’s “Canon within the Canon” idea and the “Lutheran Book of Concord.” But there are other fellowships with other confessional stances as well. After 21 years in the ordained ministry, I have seen many church growth trends come and go [I was the last of the guitar playing 'Kum Bye Yah' singing pastor around the fireplace generation who studied Lyle Schaller]. But studies of Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Tillich and Niebuhr stay with me and I can still buy their books for rock bottom prices off the internet.

Blessings in your studies at DTS. You never know if you might find a “Monophosyte, Tritheist or Modalist,or Gnostic” in one of your future churches. Usually, it is a council member who chooses to fight over the color of the restroom walls or whether to use wheat or white bread during communion.

I’m not totally sure about DTS yet. There’s a huge amount of reading (I think I read 13 or 14 books for class this semester) but it doesn’t seem like they require the quality of work I expected. It’s still too early to tell.

Anyway, I haven’t seen FMJ, but I might watch it soon if it will help me through the next couple of years!

When people ask me about the best preparation for the M. Div. program in our denomination, I tell them to watch the movies, “Full Metal Jacket and GI Jane.” After 21+ years, I am still STEEPED in Luther, Bultmann, Tillich, JEDP, Narrative Criticism and Liberation Theology. Lyle Shaller was the guru of Church growth;since then it was Barna and now I see this Mars Hill and Visionary church thing…. I can only have fond memories of that Guitar playing “Kum Bye Yah” bearded seminarian at church camp who inspired me!

Oh, and for the record, they’re introducing a D.Min. in applied theology this semester…very tempting… http://www.sbts.edu/dmin

God bless you guys. Now I’ve got to read!

Anybody want to recommend a seminary where you can get a healthy portion of both sides?

http://www.matthewsblog.waynesborochurchofchrist.org

I also found it compelling that you said ‘I hope this is an isolated phenomenon, church-growth doesn’t necessarily grow the Kingdom.’ I could not agree more. Good post.

There’s a difference between pastoral skills (e.g. homiletics) and pastoral facts (e.g. your vestry or church board can be your best friend or worst enemy).

The point of seminary is not to unload fully developed pastors on the scene. The root of the word seminary is seed–the seminary exists to plant the seeds of theological education and pastoral skills. Seminary ought to be the beginning, not the end, of pastoral and theological growth.

It seems to me that much of the concern about seminary from the praxis folks comes from a microwave mentality that wants the seminary to produce instant pastors. We need seminaries that inculcate the basics, allow for advanced study for those so inclined, and channel graduates into mentored relationships with experienced pastors who will mold them and teach them the important facts.

jem+

As a fellow layguy, what I hear most from seminary escapees is that the seminary did not prepare them for the actual work of ministry with an actual congregation.

Is this concern what drives the praxis people?