I’m starting to work through Marcus Borg’s The God We Never Knew. It takes me a while to get through books like this, despite the fact that it’s only 175 pages, because it’s so hard to read without scribbling notes like “What are you thinking!?” in the margins. This morning I was only able to read about 4 pages.
Borg paints a picture that is familiar in it’s dishonesty. It’s not a dishonesty based on misrepresentation, but omission. He describes the “two different ‘root concepts’ for thinking about God.”
The first conceptualizes God as a supernatural being “out there,” separate from the world, who created the world a long time ago and who may from time to time intervene within it. In an important sense, this God is not “here” and thus cannot be known or experienced but only believed in (which, within the logic of this concept, is what “faith” is about). I will call this way of thinking about God “supernatural theism.”
[...]
The second root concept of God in the Christian tradition thinks of God quite differently. God is the encompassing Spirit; we (and everything that is) are in God. For this concept, God is not a supernatural being separate from the universe; rather God (the sacred, Spirit) is a nonmaterial layer…of reality all around us. God is more than the universe, but the universe is in God. Thus, in a spatial sense, God is not “somewhere else” but “right here.” I will call this concept of God “panentheism.”
Immediately upon reading this I felt sorry for him. He was raised in an environment that led him to believe that God was distant and unknowable, unapproachable, and unable to be experienced. Then, the only thing that he was open to was the opposite deception that God was not personal at all, but “a nonmaterial layer.”
The dishonesty I mentioned is in not including the third category that falls between the two deceptions (I recently learned that this is called a “false dichotomy”). That God is personal, supernatural, and wholly separate (“somewhere else”), while at the same time being Spirit, ingrained and involved in creation, and knowable by his followers.
He tells the story of how, when confronted with the proposition that God was both in heaven, and omnipresent, he rationalized out the omnipresence so that He could understand God being in heaven. It makes sense…he was 9. But his adult response was to run full-speed in the other direction, rather than to walk, reconciling his ideas of God with the God presented in Scripture.
He’s basically the cliche of the “new evangelical” or the “postmodern Christian” or whatever other term you have. He was raised in a conservative Christian home, and rather than struggle with the tough truths told in the Bible about who and how God is, he raised his voice and said, “I don’t like the way you think of God, it makes me feel small and guilty. God is here to make us feel good and happy!”
Have you ever noticed how if you ask a (theologically) liberal Christian how they came to believe what they always start by telling you that they were taught the exact opposite, and it didn’t make them feel good? Where did this idea come from that God is around to make us feel good, and happy and whole come from?
What about Isaiah 6:5? After seeing God’s glory in the temple he exclaims, “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!” He saw God and was frightened? He feared for his life (and probably his soul). This certainly doesn’t sound like the feeling people think they should get when they encounter God.
Anyway, I hope to get through a little more soon.
evagrius
I don’t think Isaiah feared for his life or soul. That’s too puny a reaction.
I don’t think you have any idea of what happened.
You’re too attached to your own conception of God. Let that go and then look around. Of course, that will take a lifetime, according to the Fathers of the Church.
Elmo
Okay, I get that you have different beliefs than me, and I’m glad to debate them with you. It’s actually kind of fun. But you’ve stopped offering anything to the conversation.
To just swoop in and say, “you don’t know what you’re talking about,” then leave doesn’t make an argument.
I’m starting to get the idea that you don’t actually have any thoughts on the critiques you’ve made of my theology, from what John meant when he wrote “believe” to what Isaiah’s exclamation may have meant. You hide behind the “Fathers of the Church”, but never offer any insight from them.
Are you afraid to offer anything to the discussion? Or do you think that strafing my post and flying away without offering anything shows humility?
Elmo
Thanks for that insight. A few thoughts though:
Did you have anything to say about the first 7 paragraphs, or is your goal just to find something you don’t like?
If fearing for you life or soul is “too puny a reaction”, what’s big enough?
What’s so wrong with my “own conception of God”, and why are you so upset with me for having it?
evagrius
I was waiting for your response since you’ve been unpredictable of late.
You really should read the Fathers of the Church.
Borg doesn’t say anything knew. The themes he discusses were well known to the Fathers. I suggest you reading Dionysius the Aeropagite and his “Mystical Theology”, “Celestial Hiearchy” and “On the Divine Names”, all found in a paperback published by the Paulist Press.
Also, read Gregory of Nyssa’s “Life of Moses” also by Paulist Press.
Maybe a little Origen wouldn’t hurt. His Contra Celsum deals with objections to Christianity by a pagan whose objections aren’t all that different from modern ones.
The early Christians confronted the same problems as today.
And their answers are based on both the Bible and experience.
Elmo
I don’t think Borg is saying anything new. I think he’s saying something wrong.
Thanks for offering some thoughts…I’m working on Bloesch’s A Theology of Word & Spirit right now, but I’ll see about Dionysus…I don’t know that I have time for much more in the immediate future. Then again, I could be wrong.
What do they say that sticks out particularly to you? Do any of them fall on the same side as Borg? If so, what Biblical arguments do they use to support their view(s)? What do you think, and why?
evagrius
What side is Borg on? What do you mean by side?
What Biblical arguments do the Fathers make? Read them and find out.
Origen was the first great Christian commentator on the Bible. Lots of homiles and commentaries by him.
Gregory of Nyssa was an astute reader of Origen and an excellent commentator on the Bible. Read his Great Catechism.
Me…I seek to read the Fathers and try to understand their views. After all, they were there first.
Elmo
What side is Borg on? What do you mean by side?
What Biblical arguments do the Fathers make? Read them and find out.
Why do you comment here? You’ve done nothing but drop names. This is meant to be a discussion of theology. What do you call what you’re doing? You’re like the reference section of a library. Well, at least there I’d get some kind of synopsis.
A while back you used to make points and form arguments. What are you doing now?
And, BTW…I seek to read the Apostles and try to understand their views. After all, they were the first, and the Fathers spent almost all of their time writing about their statements.
evagrius
How can it be a discussion of theology if it’s only your theology to be discussed?
Name-dropping? I don’t think so. They’re not “names”. They’re individuals who created the theological language you use without thinking.
Which Apostles? You mean the Gospel writers, Paul and Peter?
Yes. The Fathers commented on them. Isn’t that how theology was created?
Elmo
I’m happy to discuss theology other than mine, but you haven’t brought any into the forum. Stating the names of books and their authors is not engaging in theological discussion. Why don’t you tell me what you’ve learned about the subject at hand from Origen, Chrysostom, and Gregory of Nyssa, instead of deflecting the focus?
evagrius
It’s what I said at the beginning. What Borg argues isn’t much different than what they argue, it’s just in a more contemporary language.
The immanent God and the transcendent God are one and the same. Panentheism is what the Fathers taught. Hence the reason for sacraments, especially the Eucharist, icons, blessings and other rituals that sacralize matter, or rather make the sacredness of matter visible.
evagrius
Just another note.
Rather than Isaiah, read about the Transfiguration of Christ on Mt. Tabor. The reactions of the Apostles is quite interesting.
Elmo
Ok, not being a patristics student I won’t challenge your assertion that the Eastern Fathers taught panentheism. Perhaps you could answer some questions for me with a few more specifics:
Where in Scripture did the Eastern Fathers find panentheism, as I find Borg describing it. (Note: I’m not far in, only 35 pages or so, so some of my understanding of him is based on summaries of his positions found elsewhere)
If I’m understanding him correctly, Borg is saying that God is not actually a personal being, but the verses speaking of him as such are anthropomorphic.
I believe that God is “over all and through all and in all (Eph. 4:6),” and that “in him we live and move and have our being (Acts 17:28).” But I also believe that we are created in the image of God, that he is the “heavenly father” that Christ spoke of, and that Christ was his incarnation.
I know that Borg, as a member of the Jesus Seminar, does not believe that last little tidbit. How does that affect his panentheism? Do the Eastern Fathers agree with him on that point?
This Orthodox Christian panentheism is distinct from a fundamentalist panentheism in that it maintains an ontological gulf or distance between the created and the Uncreated. Creation is not “part of” God, and the Godhead is still distinct from creation; however, God is “within” all creation, thus the Orthodox parsing of the word is “pan-entheism” (God indwells in all things) and not “panen-theism” (All things are part of God but God is more than the sum of all things).
I don’t see any problem with Orthodox Christian panentheism based on the essay I read today. But, it would seem that Borg falls into the second category set forth in this Wiki tidbit; is he a pan-entheist, or a panen-theist?
evagrius
Have you read anything else by Borg? How do you know he does not believe in the incarnation?
As for “person”, you have to do a little digging on that. The Trinity is “hypostatic”, three hypostases in one ousia.
The term person, in the original sense, does NOT mean a self-contained entity of will, logic and purpose. Person is not ego.
That’s what’s confusing people. We now think of person in the sense of an independent ego. That’s not the original meaning.
So, Borg may very well be someone who could accept the original definition of person.
Elmo
What is the original definition of person? And where do you find that God is not “self contained”?
evagrius
Hypostasis was the original Greek term. It was translated into Latin as persona using prosopon, mask, as the term, ( which was only used in Christology basically) rather than hypostsis, ( which got translated as substansia).
Ousia gets translated as esse, being, but it’s not completely accurate.
Self-contained here means ego. God is not an ego, nor three egos in one.
The only human person, the only actual one is Jesus Christ. We’re all individuals striving to be persons, with more or less success.